Bipartisanship, Structural Partisanship, Activists vs Jurors & Comfort w/ Ambiguity | Shannon Watson
Watch the full episode: YouTube
Episode Summary
Political scientist Shannon Watson explores the dynamics of bipartisanship and structural partisanship, examining the differences between activists and jurors, and discussing why comfort with ambiguity is crucial for productive political discourse and democratic decision-making. With 20+ years of experience in electoral politics across multiple states, Shannon shares insights from her work with Majority in the Middle, a non-partisan organization working to bridge political divides.
Key Topics: bipartisanship, structural partisanship, political science, activists vs jurors, ambiguity, democratic discourse, Shannon Watson, political psychology, decision making, civic engagement
Table of Contents
- Introduction and Guest Welcome
- Majority in the Middle Organization
- Structural Partisanship and Legislative Barriers
- Primary Challenges and Candidate Barriers
- Political Violence and Entry Barriers
- Activists vs Jurors in Political Systems
- Comfort with Ambiguity in Politics
- Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Introduction and Guest Welcome
Shannon Watson
Evan Meyer: [00:00:00] Good morning everyone. Thank you for joining another episode of Meyer Side Chats. What a day. Today we have Shannon Watson with us. Very excited to chat with Shannon. We had a wonderful conversation about two days ago, um, and we are carrying it forward to today to bring you all the best of our conversation.
Evan Meyer: Shannon has 20 plus years of experience in electoral politics. Advising candidates and working on campaigns on both sides of the aisle in Kansas, Colorado, Minnesota, and she has a wonderful perspective on how government works, on how politics works, and how to bring us back towards center and have reasonable conversations.
Evan Meyer: Shannon, hello.
Shannon Watson: Hi, how are you?
Evan Meyer: Nice to see you again.
Shannon Watson: You too.
Evan Meyer: Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation, uh, the other day and, and very excited to, to, uh, now share it with the world. And, um, tell me a little bit, let's, why [00:01:00] don't we jump right into just majority in the middle. It says a lot, I think it
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: what you're thinking, but what do you, tell me a little bit about that.
Evan Meyer: How'd you get into it and what are you working on right now that you're really excited about?
Shannon Watson: Okay, so, uh, majority in the middle is a non-partisan non-profit organization, and we've work to equip and empower, uh, civility and, um, good civic. Uh, and political engagements. Um, and we do that by creating space, sometimes metaphorical space and sometimes actual, literal spaces, uh, for people to come together, um, no matter sort of what their personal political persuasion is. Um, uh, you know. Left, right center, not, um, you know, whatever. Um, anybody who, who comes to our table in good faith, we have a spot for them. Um, we try to elevate the, uh, the conduct of people who are sort of acting like we want [00:02:00] to see po
Majority in the Middle Organization
liticians, uh, conduct themselves. Um, and we do that by. you know, using our platform and then also encouraging, uh, traditional media organizations to, to highlight their work, um, and not just have all the spotlight on the people who are representing all of the division. And then we also work on, um, a thing that we call structural partisanship, which is the rules, customs, and sometimes even physical infrastructure, uh, that divides people and keeps them divided primarily in legislative, uh, settings. So we got a lot going on. Um, we just, uh, in September released our third stated bipartisanship report, which is an analysis of all of the bills that are here heard here in Minnesota, and the, um, the partisan authoring of those bills.
Shannon Watson: Um, the, the first one we sort of, we sort of accidentally got into this work, um, [00:03:00] but the, the very first. Report showed a lot of the hidden bipartisanship that was happening, um, when people were coming together and authoring bills. Uh, that wasn't showing up at the end of the session when everything was getting voted on party line votes.
Shannon Watson: So, uh, we got to release that and we did a little statewide tour, um, with, with, uh. With, uh, elected officials and, uh, did a bunch of press conferences around the state. Tried to make that coverage a little more relevant for different communities. Um, and yeah, we're about to have our purple party, uh, which is a thing that we do every year.
Shannon Watson: Uh, the second Saturday after election day. We have a party no matter who wins, no matter who loses. Um, everybody is welcome. Uh, generally some people like wait until after the, uh, outcome of elections to say if they really wanted to come to a party or not. Uh, but we [00:04:00] do that and, and that's a really, really fun thing to do. So we're getting ready for that on November 15th. Yeah.
Evan Meyer: Very nice. Very nice. All right, let's jump into one of the things you m
Structural Partisanship and Legislative Barriers
entioned and we talked about, um, earlier, which is this, this structural partisanship and, and, and some of the things that get in the way, um, perhaps even at, uh, within their own caucus.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: is, right. So what, what are some of the things that you've noticed that get in the way, um, perhaps that the public doesn't know, uh, or common knowledge about, about how things work in that regard?
Evan Meyer: In, in finally getting something executed at the legislative level?
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: well, Minnesota is a really interesting, um, place for a study of bipartisanship and sort of an analysis of, of what are those, you know, what are those things that are, that are getting in the way? Because, you know, all, all kinds of Americans say, oh, well we want our elected officials to get along.
Shannon Watson: And people, you know, campaign the first time [00:05:00] and they're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna work across the aisle. And then those things. to not happen. And um, so I did a lot of research going into this and um, it turned out I had been noodling on the idea for about 15 years before we launched in 2020. but one of the things that I heard over and over from legislators. Was that the opposition to working across the aisle generally doesn't come from the other side of the aisle. It comes from your own caucus. Um, there's some, uh, some sort of like good hearted and then some like really. Organizational barriers put up, um, because generally leadership wants the caucus to stick together and wants everybody to toe the party line. Um, and so sometimes they need incentives to brave, do that brave thing, um, and work with somebody across the aisle on, um, something that [00:06:00] their entire caucus may not entirely agree with. Um, so in Minnesota this year. It's a, it's, we, we sort of accidentally wound up with an opportunity to have a lot of bipartisanship because our, uh, house of Representatives, it's House of Representatives in, in Minnesota, you know, in California, it's the assembly. Um, our House of Representatives is tied with 67 members in the Democrats and 67 members in the Republicans. so you need constitutionally 68 votes for anything to pass. Which means you've gotta have bipartisanship on everything that goes through. Um, which in a good way means there are a lot of people who are, uh, getting an opportunity to work members of the other party in ways that they haven't ever had to. it's also giving a lot of cover for people who, who really are interested in working across the [00:07:00] aisle. Um. You know, it, it's not because they want to or because they're brave, it's because they have to. Uh, and that gives 'em a little cover with constituents who might otherwise be a little irritated about that.
Evan Meyer: Yeah. What, and, and, and when we say working across the aisle, what, what does it specifically mean to, in, for. A Republican to support something that's Strat typically not supported. What are the barriers that are preventing that person from, from supporting, whether it's internal or external? What are some of the real, uh, things that that happen in, in, in reality,
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: you know.
Shannon Watson: there's a couple. The first one is that, and, and most people don't understand this until you, until you get, you know, you really inner workings of a legislative body. Um, the primary organizing, um. S uh, situation that, you know, people think, you know, okay, you've got a [00:08:00] house, you got a Senate, or you got an assembly and a Senate, um, and you've got the different districts and you've got the parties and whatever. The main organizing, um, factions are the caucuses. So the House, Republican Caucus and the house, um, in Minnesota, the Democratic Party is actually the Democrat Farmer Labor Party. Um, so if I say DFL, that's what that is.
Primary Challenges and Candidate Barriers
That's Democratic party in, in Minnesota. So it's like the house, DFL caucus and the house, the, the Senate DFL caucus and the Senate Republican Caucus, those four. much sort of act like independent organizations. They have their own structures, they have their own seniority, they have their own leadership, they have their own staff, so, so sometimes it is Democrats versus Republicans, and sometimes it's the house versus the Senate. Um, and, and actually that, that came up a lot this year because, um, as much as people expected those [00:09:00] 67 people to fight against the other 67 people, uh, at the end of the day, they really had to come together and be team house, um, against the Senate to try to advance what, what they wanted. Um. So there's that. There's also one of the, one of the biggest barriers to working across the aisle that I have heard from legislators is their constituents. And is the, uh, primarily the really active constituents, the, the party, party elders, but party activists, um, who are the ones that show up and do the, uh, endorsements. And so they have a really hard time. Uh, most of the party endorsements for legislative seats, like in 2026, every single one of our legislators is, is on the ballot. Um, the house, uh, is elected every two years. Our Senate is elected four years, four years, and two years, which has to do with redistricting. Uh, but this is one of those years where [00:10:00] everybody is on the ballot. Um, and so they will all have to go through. Endorsing conventions, um, in late winter, early spring, so February, March, April, in there somewhere. Uh, which means their primary audience for a few months those people who have votes in the the party caucuses about whether they're gonna get the endorsement or not. And as you can imagine, the. Um, language that you use and the, uh, opinions and the priorities of 200 very committed, uh, party activists is probably different than the general population. Um, or your constituents who are, do not share that party affiliation. So,
Evan Meyer: I don't know if the right term for those folks. I don't know if the right term for these particular folks. I think it may be partially squeaky [00:11:00] wheel. Is usually a good term to describe People that like continue to do the thing and have the loudest voice and push on the issue.
Shannon Watson: Right.
Evan Meyer: wheel a good term to describe these types of.
Shannon Watson: it's, I think it's a good term. And, um, they, I mean, they're also, they're the ones that have the power. Uh, they are delegates to the endorsing convention. Um, if you don't get the endorsement, you still do have the option, uh, to go to a primary, uh, to get, to get that party spot on the ballot in November. Um, but, uh, a lot of people don't have the desire or don't have the resources to run against somebody else who may have gotten the endorsement. all the way until our, like our primary elections aren't until August, which is a thing that I think universally nobody likes because in August the only thing that people in Minnesota are doing is, is trying to be outside.
Shannon Watson: 'cause it's one of the months that we can. So, [00:12:00] so it like, it takes a lot, um, it takes a lot of resources. It takes a lot of grit to run a primary contest. And I will tell, like, there is not a single legislator that I know who is more afraid of a challenger across the aisle, uh, you know, like of the other party than they are a, a primary, uh, kind of candidate, primary and uh, uh, challenger those are much harder races to run. For most
Evan Meyer: When you say harder, you mean, you just mean the, the, the chances of winning,
Shannon Watson: Well, and just, it means that you have to, you know, you have to sort of retreat to the fringes with your language and with what you're trying to do. And,
Evan Meyer: right.
Shannon Watson: so in some districts it's not as big of a deal as like, okay, s
Political Violence and Entry Barriers
o I live in Minneapolis, which is a very sort of blue city. That doesn't mean that, you know, moderates and Republicans don't live here.
Shannon Watson: It's just like. We're, we're outnumbered by a lot. so the district that I used to live in, [00:13:00] uh, my house member, uh, has had the DDFL endorsement, democratic endorsement, um, ran unopposed two years ago. Um, and uh, and she got 93% of the vote. She had no opponent whose name was on the ballot, and yet 7% of the people in the district who voted wrote somebody else in or didn't vote for her.
Shannon Watson: Um, goes to show, like even in the districts that are super red or super blue, like every elected official has constituents that they are supposed to represent didn't vote for them. But it's it, it's, it's easier to, um, in districts like that where, you know, 90% of the people are, are, are with you most of the time. Uh, the real contest is the primary, you know, if you have multiple candidates from one [00:14:00] party, and this could be the same as, you know, in Greater Minnesota where you get some of those deep red districts, whoever gets through the primary is probably gonna skate against. Against their, their opposite party opponent if they even have one. So that's where it gets, it gets a little more difficult because you know, you have to play to that particular audience. And sometimes people are more than happy to, maybe that's, you know, why they got into politics. There are deep red or deep blue and that's what they wanna do. Um, but some, particularly the ones that live in the more purple districts have a harder time of that because they risk alienating the people who aren't those party delegates.
Evan Meyer: Right. Well, it also sounds like a bit of an activation energy issue, right? Like once you have the momentum, it's a lot easier and people know you. But getting to from zero to one is hard, right? Like, like if you don't, if you don't have a community or an audience or a following and you're like, I have good ideas, well.
Evan Meyer: That's great, but this person is being listened to by a quarter million [00:15:00] people and you're being listened to by none. So how do you get in, in, just from an awareness standpoint, a branding awareness standpoint, how do you do that? And it's really hard. And unfortunately, I know even in California, for example, um, you know, you get access once you are in the Senate for assembly to, uh, a massive voter registration email list
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: like.
Evan Meyer: The Senate, it's like, you know, I, a quarter million, half a million. It depends on certain things, but like, it's just, it's massive. So then you're like, okay, how do you even, how do you even start to do that if you, unless you have already built that somehow,
Shannon Watson: Right.
Evan Meyer: no, there, it's just an audience at some point.
Evan Meyer: It's an audience and branding exercise. So like, so the first step is like, okay, you have an idea. Oh, you wanna run? Great. How are you gonna go from zero to one?
Shannon Watson: Yeah. It's hard.
Evan Meyer: This is what they're doing.
Shannon Watson: you know it. It's interesting, um, you [00:16:00] mentioned in my bio, like I worked for political campaigns for a really long time and that was either as a volunteer or as a, as a paid staff. And then I got out of that and I used to do a thing, um, that I called pre-campaign consulting, that was I would work with people who were interested in running for office. At some point, like not right then. So this wasn't, um, how do you door knock or how do you fundraise or how do you create a message or, you know, what do you need to know about yard signs? Um, way less than more people want to know about yard signs. You'd need to know way less about yard signs. Uh, but what we would work on is, um, you know, becoming known in your community if you are looking for an endorsement,
Activists vs Jurors in Political Systems
um, not having the first time you ever show up. To one of those precinct meetings being when you're trying to get the endorsement, no, you need to go a
Evan Meyer: Right.
Shannon Watson: of time to
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: your point, to start building that audience. And that's one of the ways that is, is really helpful for candidates to look at. [00:17:00] Um, sometimes even like, you know, you gotta run multiple times. Um, your first raise something like it there, there's a, I can't find the the stat, but it's something like 97% of first time candidates lose. Like 97% of first time candidates lose
Evan Meyer: Even at local elections, even, even at the.
Shannon Watson: Yeah. And that's, um, that could be really daunting, especially if first time candidates have a, a bad experience running and losing.
Shannon Watson: I mean, you could run and lose and still have a good experience if you, if you frame it up the right way. And if like the reason that you lose. Is it sort of your fault, or something that you didn't know that trips you up? So,
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: I, I used to do that and that was, that was really fun. Um, because it, it gave us an opportunity to say, you know, who are you cons?
Shannon Watson: Who are your constituencies? Who is your network? Who do you need to know? Where do you. Where are the places you need to know? Um, and that actually [00:18:00] I think helped a lot.
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: 'cause that's the thing, if, if a candidate runs and doesn't win and never runs again, like that can be a huge swing and a miss for some, uh, communities.
Shannon Watson: Especially because the other piece about first time candidates, first time candidates usually have a lot of people around them. for whom it's also their first experience of electoral politics.
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: has a bad experience and their family has a bad experience and their neighbors have a bad experience, then,
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: just drives people further and further away.
Evan Meyer: Yeah, it well, for sure. And you're also putting your, your entire life, uh, under a microscope. So, and, and your family too. And now with political violence and. There's stuff going on. It's, it's quite scary to, to, to say, let me enter that game. Uh, it's added yet another barrier to entry, not just activation, energy and building a community, having better ideas, motivating people to believe in you, believing your ideas are better than other people's.
Evan Meyer: Uh, that you have the, you have all the fix, [00:19:00] you have the fixes, right? Well, now you have to worry about political violence. If you get too big, then you know, are people, are your ideas a little too much for some crazy. People. Um, and, and that adds unfortunately another barrier to entry. Uh, what do you think is, where are we right now in terms of like, the type of people, so given the 97% statistic that you've, you've mentioned given how hard it is with activation energy to get to from zero to one to even be considered in a race like that.
Shannon Watson: Right.
Evan Meyer: Right. Especially at the state level, I mean. Even at local levels, it's, it's, it's challenging. Um, so, um, what do we need to do to overcome these things? Plus the political violence, the fears of getting involved so people can, the right people can bubble up and start getting elected. 'cause right now there's such a small number of people who fit into this, this mold.
Evan Meyer: It's like a certain type and style of person. [00:20:00] It's not the engineers.
Shannon Watson: right.
Evan Meyer: And the entrepreneurs quite as much, uh, you know,
Shannon Watson: the
Evan Meyer: um.
Shannon Watson: are really high. Um, elected office also doesn't pay very well, and none of us actually have free time. I mean, I don't know
Comfort with Ambiguity in Politics
a single person who just, you know, at the end of the day sits and stairs at the wall for an hour and doesn't move. Like we're all doing things with our time. And so part of the challenge is figuring out what trade-offs there's gonna. Are you gonna be stepping away from work? Are you gonna be stepping away from your family? We have made, um, serving in electoral office in this country, like really, really unpleasant. Um, and
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: think, geez, I wish I had a silver bullet, but there's, there's really like 14 or 15 things that we can probably do.
Shannon Watson: I think the first one is, um, having a little more support, a little more respect for people who are serving in office. Um, the. The social media, um, [00:21:00] comments that they have to deal with and the, the harassment, um, that's gotta stop. And, um, like, I know, I know a guy who, uh, has served in office and he is, he's running for another office and when people send him nasty emails, he writes them back and says, you know, thank you for your email. Uh, let's go to coffee and talk about this. And of course, almost nobody takes him up on it because they
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: wanna have a conversation. They want to, you know, send a nasty gram to somebody that they don't know. Um, and I mean, I, I think there's, there's gotta be something to be said about like our, like everybody's sort of mental health threshold.
Evan Meyer: Yeah, these keyboard warriors and
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: warrior type people. Yeah.
Shannon Watson: And we're all very angry and we're all very scared, and it seems like a lot of this all the time. And we wanna figure out who to point that at, um, and who to sort of do harm to. And we're, we're [00:22:00] kind of doing it to each other, um, which is
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: it up more. So anyways, a little more kindness on social media.
Shannon Watson: Um, another thing is, um. There are, in my mind there are two different kinds of people who, who run for office, um, people who are more of an activist or people who are more of an analyst. Um, I used to say activist and judge, but analyst is actually a better, a, a better, uh, sort of term for this. So activists. running for office because they have the solution to a problem or they have something that they very much care about, whether that is homelessness or immigration or you know, the taxes, you know, their property taxes or their kids' school or whatever, they come in. Um, they have either volunteered with an advocacy organization or they've been involved in, in that in some way, and they bring those experiences and those sort of solutions. To the table. To the [00:23:00] table. Like that's, that's their, their reason for running for office. I know how to fix this problem. I wanna fix this problem. Like, here I come. I have found there's a lot of advocacy organizations who are really pushing their, um, their supporters and sometimes their staff to run for office.
Shannon Watson: Um, that is one way to get from zero to one is to have an organization like that behind you. Um, but, but so that has, that has, um. people with a particular mindset to, um, to elected office. And the challenge is once they get elected, then they have to make decisions. And if you come in, uh, with your solution in mind, with your mind made up, um,
Evan Meyer: Okay.
Shannon Watson: your statistics and stuff, you're not really interested in the conversation, you're like, I have this solution, um, then that makes it much harder to negotiate or deal with. Deal with, um, you know, your other elected officials, an analyst [00:24:00] or like a juror the people who say, we've got a challenge. I want to come help. But I don't necessarily have a solution in mind. Like, you know, you go in and you sit on a jury and the jury is presented with evidence and this and the situation, and then they have to get together with the other jurors and make a decision. Those people generally, like they don't know as much about one thing. They generally know a lot more about a lot of little things. Um, and they have a very open mind, which means they generally work more slowly than the activists life. And there are activists and jurors on both sides. Like, you know, you can have right or left, it doesn't really matter. Um, old and young doesn't really matter. but when you get those, those two. Kinds of, of elected officials, you get 'em like sort of in the same space. Then they butt heads even if they agree on things, um, just based on how they want to approach the job. It's like, I want [00:25:00] to enact this solution, or let's talk about the options to this solution.
Shannon Watson: We may get to yours. Um, but that's, that's one of the things. And so that's one of the reasons that I always try to look for. Um, people who are more like jurors than activists activists have a place
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
in democracy. Um, but the more jurors that you have, the more likely you are going to find consensus on issues. and have people who are willing to, to compromise and collaborate and, and not necessarily just get thumbs up for the, the thing that they came in with.
Evan Meyer: I love that there, we, we need to have an index, the juror to activist index.
Shannon Watson: Wouldn't that be
Evan Meyer: Right? And what should it be? 50 50? Should it be 75%? J what you're, what you're suggesting, I think, and I've I've, something I've thought about for a long time is why are people not studying political philosophy?
Shannon Watson: Hmm.
Evan Meyer: Right.
Shannon Watson: dull.
Evan Meyer: [00:26:00] It's, it's, I mean, um, uh, but there's, there's, there's brilliant people, John Locke and Thomas Payne and like all these like, right, like people who have, who have thought through the, the, the f because it's not, it's not a science
Shannon Watson: Right.
Evan Meyer: to create.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: in art. It's how to create a perfect society has not been discovered yet. We've been working on it for thousands of years.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: one's figured it out. Plato had great ideas,
Shannon Watson: Uhhuh,
Evan Meyer: thought he knew what he was, right? Like we and we, we've had to go through iterations of what, uh, ultimately is the most utilitarian, um, utilitarian approach where most people can be most happy with the best quality of life.
Evan Meyer: Most often. And at the moment, it's the best it's ever been, given all the problems.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: We're still not, we're not hitting people with clubs. One outta three people aren't dying by, you know, because they have different eyebrows than you. Uh, when they're blindsided with a, a, a big, you know, wooden club.
Shannon Watson: [00:27:00] Yeah.
Evan Meyer: You know, that's what it used to be like.
Evan Meyer: You.
Shannon Watson: I be really fun. Uh, a, a John Locke on TikTok channel, um, explaining political philosophy in 30 seconds or less.
Evan Meyer: Yeah, there's, and you know what? There's actually a lot of good content if people were more philo philosophical. And I think that aligns with your juror comment because I think what you're suggesting is can you weigh out pros and cons and see the Right. So, and, and, and a philosopher is essentially someone who does that well without taking a large.
Evan Meyer: Um, emotional investment on either side. They can weigh them out objectively and a juror does that, is supposed to be able to do that. And they study philosophy.
Shannon Watson: Uhhuh. Yeah, absolutely. And, and in practice, um, you know, the, the jurors generally have, um. A little more, uh, comfort with ambiguity, and [00:28:00] they bring more voices to the table, actually. Um, because it's, it's not that the, the person who's coming in is, has to be, um, more
Evan Meyer: it's a great line.
Shannon Watson: But the one place where activists really do, um, excel is in an attention economy, like an activist can explain their thing to you in 30 seconds.
Evan Meyer: Right.
Shannon Watson: A juror has a really hard time to do that. So we are very much in an attention economy and elected officials have had to be, um, it's, it's really hard to. Well, it's, it's the whole, the next 10 words thing from, from West Wing.
Shannon Watson: What are the next 10 words? Like 10 words is great. What are the next 10 words? Tell me the next 10 words. Um, I am an enormous fan of everything. Aaron Sorkin, by the way. Um, a lot of us are, um, uh, I used to have, I actually used to have a sticky note. This is a sidebar. Uh, I used to have a sticky note on my monitor. Um, and I do a lot of writing [00:29:00] and the sticky notes said, uh, what would Aaron Sorkin write? And after a couple years I had to take it down because I realized it was so much pressure I wasn't getting anything done.
Evan Meyer: A little. A little too hard. Yeah.
Shannon Watson: right.
Evan Meyer: That's funny.
Shannon Watson: activists work really well in the attention economy and so they have, um, a much better. Uh, embrace of how we are doing communication these days. And so that el that, that gives 'em a little extra, um, lift in that getting from zero to one,
Evan Meyer: I see,
Shannon Watson: problem.
Evan Meyer: see. Yeah. They excel in the attention economy and the rage bait and the, in the, in the click bait and the how to, you know, get people,
Shannon Watson: it down to something really simple.
Evan Meyer: yeah.
Shannon Watson: know,
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: don't like my
Evan Meyer: Mm-hmm.
Shannon Watson: are a terrible person
Evan Meyer: Yep, yep. Right. What click advertising dollars. So, uh, and that's, and that's, that's an unfortunate, um, [00:30:00] reality
Shannon Watson: It is.
Evan Meyer: because it's taking the, the emotional impulsive, um.
Evan Meyer: Often even whimsical mentality and behavior of what people feel in the moment without considering implications, consequences, and perspective. And it, and it throws it at the top of the list and, and. You know, I'm, I'm glad there's at least some recognition that this is happening. And it seems like people know, if you tell them this, they'll be like, oh, yeah, yeah, of course.
Evan Meyer: But they're the first ones to participate in it, so it's very, and they'll, well, let's just play the game, you know, and some people don't wanna play that game. And if you play, how do you play that game in a way that, uh, is not just doing, you know, click bait type stuff, but, but you said something really interesting, you said comfort with ambiguity.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: This is an interesting, um, you have to do a lot of self work,
Shannon Watson: Mm-hmm.
Evan Meyer: right? To, to, to be able to feel [00:31:00] comfortable in, in, uh, ambiguous spaces, especially ones that are fear, where there's fear can come up and you've got tr past traumas or whatever triggers you to get real invested in this thing.
Shannon Watson: Yes.
Evan Meyer: do you, how do you put that aside and say, oh man, wait a second.
Evan Meyer: 150 million people think differently than me
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: Even with all that, how do you suppress those things so that you can let even have a, be comfortable and ambiguity
Shannon Watson: Mm-hmm.
Evan Meyer: embrace, uh, uh, uh, a reason rational conversation.
Shannon Watson: Right. Well, and that, I think that's one of the places where, you know, I tell people all the time that if they want, um, better political camp, you don't really want, like, I don't like the people on my ballot. Okay. Then either run for office yourself or that may you, you may not be the best person on the ballot, um, but think of the best person, you know, like who is the best person, you know. And encourage them to run for [00:32:00] office. And 99 times out of a hundred they will laugh at you. Uh, 'cause they'll be like, I don't want any part of
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: Um, but that's the thing. It's the people who are, you know, just kind of the best people, the smartest, um, the most the most compassionate, the most thoughtful, um, you know, the, the ones who. you know, have a, a breadth and depth of life experience. Um, that gives them an interesting perspective. Um, and those are not always the people who talk the most or talk the loudest actually. They're often not the person who's talking the most or the person who's talking the loudest. Loudest. probably not. And I say that as somebody who talks a lot and talks pretty loud, so
Evan Meyer: I think there's a reason for that, I think. I think one of the reasons, and look, I find myself thinking about this a lot also, where you wanna reply to something and say something and then you go. What are the chances you're gonna convince [00:33:00] someone of your argument on a thread, on a con? Like you think that, and you're gonna spend the time to convince people of, of, of your idea.
Evan Meyer: Like when, you know, when you say like, we, we've had this is it When you have something to communicate to you communicate via SMS, do you communicate via email? Do you, is it a phone call? All that. And sometimes in the business world or in anyway, you know, you have to say, ah, I don't think I'm gonna send that in an email.
Evan Meyer: I think that's a phone call, right?
Shannon Watson: I had
Evan Meyer: Things.
Shannon Watson: call like right before I got on the thing.
Evan Meyer: It's a phone,
Shannon Watson: call me 'cause she was like, I don't wanna put this in writing.
Evan Meyer: right? They've taken all the worst things that are not meant for text messages, you know, and, and, and they've put it in hateful short messaging,
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: which is not where it belongs to get to the bottom of points, and no one is gonna be like, oh, man. You're so right and all the thousand people on who've commented on this are now gonna agree with you and change their perspective.
Evan Meyer: You may get a few thumbs up, you may get a couple people go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you're not gonna shift [00:34:00] anything on that co on that thread with that comment with your long, thoughtful response on that one thread.
Shannon Watson: um, that when people post on social media and they have arguments on social media, um, it actually, it doesn't, um, it, it almost never changes anybody else's mind. But what it does is it reinforces your position in your own mind. So it shoves you further down your rabbit hole.
Evan Meyer: Oh, oh boy. Yeah, I, I'd have to imagine it's so much more weighted in the way that you're talking about than like the number of people. You think it affected. So it's not a good use of time or your brain power or intellect. You're better intellect, you're better off spending time with your kids, uh, traveling, uh, reading a book you like, uh, and, and, and perhaps writing something that, uh, can be shared in a much different way.
Evan Meyer: More, more, um, effectively. But that comment on social, I think people gotta stop that. It's like, stop.
Shannon Watson: You know, it's interesting, I've read the, I have always been the person to read the comments, and I know the rule is don't read the comments. Um. Comments that I know are [00:35:00] not coming from bots, I generally still read. I still read because, um, the comments that people will put on like moderated forums, um, it, it may not be, um, it may not be super nuanced. Those are what people really think. the, the best way to make sure that you're not gonna solve a problem is to ignore half of the people who are engaged in a problem and not know, like, you know, the, the first step to solving any problem is acknowledging that there is one. the first step to overcoming any argument is to find out that there is one,
Evan Meyer: Yeah, that's right.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: no, just versus noticing.
Shannon Watson: Yeah, absolutely.
Evan Meyer: Yeah,
Shannon Watson: and listening and, and then not immediately discounting like that person said that thing because they are
Evan Meyer: yeah. [00:36:00] Well the, you know, a good test and, and could be sometimes take the hardest possible issue. Gun control, abortion, uh, you know, any of these like top line things, which in my opinion, there's not a right answer for, because if there was, it would be, it wouldn't. It's a philosophical problem, not an obvious scientific answer, and enough pe things that are divided 50 50.
Evan Meyer: It's not like there's dumb people on one side and smart people on the other side. Like there's, there's obviously real intellectual rationale and concern. For, for any of these sides, if things are di, when things are divided 50 50, you didn't win. If you won by 51%,
Shannon Watson: Absolutely.
Evan Meyer: win.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: you know, so.
Shannon Watson: actually, I'm in support, like when we talk about federal government, like, which I don't talk about very often, but like the 60 per 60 votes you need in the Senate. I think that's great because still that's not an overwhelming [00:37:00] majority, but that's, that's more than just
Evan Meyer: Right, right. It's funny to think about. It's like, yes, we won. It's like, uh, sort of a zero sum game.
Shannon Watson: Yeah. Oh
Evan Meyer: Okay.
Shannon Watson: We could,
Evan Meyer: Right. So,
Shannon Watson: on zero sum games.
Evan Meyer: oh, we won the abortion thing this time. It's like, hmm. Sort of a zero sum game. You won, someone else lost.
Shannon Watson: permanently,
Evan Meyer: Exactly, and it's, and it's just too complicated for people to think that there's a right answer.
Evan Meyer: And anytime anyone comes up and is like, oh, I can solve the health insurance problem so easily, all you have to do is
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: this one thing. And it's like, wow, you should run for office and make that happen because if, because all these very smart people, if not figured out that brilliant
Shannon Watson: Right.
Evan Meyer: minute solution to a hundred year old problem.
Shannon Watson: And that's the thing. I mean, we're, we're left, like the easy stuff is done. We are left with the hard stuff. You know, you,
Evan Meyer: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Shannon Watson: and, um, a brilliant, brilliant friend of mine. [00:38:00] Um. Catalyzed for me the gun argument, um, several years ago. So she is a woman, she is a gun owner. She carries a gun, she has a, a permit to carry, a concealed carry permit. um, she was going to school and the campus had, uh, a no guns on campus policy. And so one of the things that she wanted to do is she wanted to, she wanted the school to change that. because she wanted to have her, her gun with her as she does most of the time. And her thing was that the challenge with guns is that gun makes her feel safe and we come into a problem when her gun makes me feel unsafe. Like that's, that's the thing. Her gun makes her feel safe. Her gun makes me feel, and [00:39:00] actually her gun doesn't make me feel unsafe, but, you know, whatever. Like we're talk beyond just who's, who's feeling of safety? Are we gonna lean into and, and hold up.
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: also when you're talking about something that's fear based. That's not the rational part of your brain, that that's, that's the limbic part of your brain. That's the reptilian, the oldest part. Um, and to your point, you can't, you can't rationalize your way out of fear.
Evan Meyer: No,
Shannon Watson: So
Evan Meyer: you can't.
Shannon Watson: brilliant.
Evan Meyer: Yeah, I think that's a, an interesting one of the fundamental,
Shannon Watson: Mm-hmm.
Evan Meyer: uh, philosophical. Arguments of of, of why it's complicated. Um, there's a lot of 'em, I think. Uh,
Shannon Watson: And that's, and that's one of the reasons that we use that tactic. And I say we as people in the, you know, sort of politics industry, we as the tactics to make, um, know, very [00:40:00] dry policy considerations into something that people are going to have an emotional reaction to. Because
Evan Meyer: yeah.
Shannon Watson: can't, you can't rationalize your way out of that if they are afraid.
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: it is that you're trying to promote or trying to stop, like
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: easy. You just got now. Now the next part is you just have to keep 'em afraid or angry to do what you want.
Evan Meyer: Right, right. So the, the, a lot, there's so many human psychology underlying problems with this and fear-based emotional responses to things and, uh, sense of self purpose and like why people even engage in the first place. Like, you're not gonna do anything about it. Why are you even read something else?
Evan Meyer: It's just the craziest thing. I've had this conversation with way too many friends and family, like, all you're doing is there's so much beauty in the world. Go and join if you're, if you can't, is it Maya Angelou, this famous quote, I forget who said, if you can't, if you can't, uh uh. If you don't like it, fix, change it.
Evan Meyer: If you can't change it, change your attitude.
Shannon Watson: [00:41:00] yeah. Something like that.
Evan Meyer: Right. It's like you're gonna spend all this time hating. You're not doing anything. You're gonna just go work on your business and read something nice. Go read books about art and beauty and music, and enjoy life. You're so frustrated and you're so privileged and you're just, you feel bad that you're privileged to live in America in the top 1% of people in West Los Angeles and have everything, and you don't have to worry about hot water or plumbing or anything like that.
Evan Meyer: You got all this incredible, the food is always fine. The water's always fine.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: doorstep, and all you wanna do is go out and hate things that you're not gonna do anything about. I, I don't, I don't get that mentality.
Shannon Watson: of us push the message that if you're, you know, like the, the, the thing, if you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. I hate that. Like,
Evan Meyer: I mean,
Shannon Watson: to
Evan Meyer: no.
Shannon Watson: up, even though it, that's, that's the entire point of,
Evan Meyer: Yeah,
Shannon Watson: thing is
Evan Meyer: that's right.
Shannon Watson: up. So yeah.
Evan Meyer: So let's bring it back to, let's bring it back a little to majority in the middle. I want to, I want to get a little bit more about, so maybe, um, the most exciting thing [00:42:00] you're working on right now. Um, and, uh, let's encapsulate this conversation a little bit around about what you are doing right now in your organization, uh, to, to make some of these, uh, improvements in our society.
Shannon Watson: Yeah. So one of the things that we, um, are working on, we've got this whole body of work that, uh, is, is just, it's just waiting to get off the ground. It, it is formulated, it's just waiting to get off the ground. Um, but it is a focus on, um, nonpartisan local officials. So like, you know, the legislature and the Congress, those are partisan roles. Um, in Minnesota, every local elected office, um, so that's county commissioner, city council, mayor, school board, park board, you know, supervisor, whatever. Those are all legally non-partisan offices. They're not always functionally non-partisan offices, but they're legally non-partisan offices. And so we have spent the last couple of years, um, talking with our friends and doing research and, um, [00:43:00] trying to figure out like how do we keep the non-partisan offices non-partisan? How do we create community around nonpartisan offices and people who hold them so that, you know, they have a community. It's really hard to say. No to an endorsement or to being a, a member of a party because so many things come along with that. Um, and then also, uh, Minnesota's got, I don't know if it's a significant problem, but it depends on who you talk to, um, and who's using it, uh, but sort of a rural urban divide. And so, um, we
Evan Meyer: I think that's the whole country.
Shannon Watson: Right. Probably.
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: we have been convening, um, some Zoom groups. It used to be that we would convene a, a group of, uh, elected officials for whatever reason, and we would spend the first half of the call talking about whatever we were had intended to talk about. And then we spent the other half of the call when they would basically be [00:44:00] having a support group meeting and talking about zoning or pickleball. Or how do you deal with the, the frequent flyer constituents who show up, uh, at every meeting and they always have a comment about something on the agenda. Like, how do you, how do you respectfully deal with them? Um, and so, so we, we put together this whole thing, um, that is, is basically just that it's the second half of the meeting. Um, and created these cohorts of some people who are in rural areas. Some are in suburban, some are in urban. Um, and trying to mix those up so people can find commonalities and, um, and then sort of like ideas of things that they might have not thought of because it hadn't applied to them yet, or they can exchange information.
Shannon Watson: So like that has been a really cool thing, um, to watch. And then we've got, you know, a bunch of other work that. That is, is getting ready to jump off, but it's, it's all based on that and creating those relationships and
Evan Meyer: So, so the goal is to create [00:45:00] a, a non-par cities should be non-partisan.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: Is that the idea in, in.
Shannon Watson: Well, I mean, legally, those, those, um, those offices are, because they're not meant to be, you know, there's no such thing as a, as a DFL or a Republican pothole
Evan Meyer: Right, but what makes the city partisan?
Shannon Watson: Um, the, uh, the, uh, when the endorsements, uh, when local party units start doing endorsements, um, and, uh, candidates feel like they need to carry that banner. Um, there are some places in Minnesota where the party endorsement is a, a big thing.
Evan Meyer: You mean the city council? The people on the city council, for example, let's just say they're all Democrat.
Shannon Watson: right, right.
Evan Meyer: Which in many California cities they are, they're just, all right. I, I, so, okay, so now you have, so now, and, and so you're suggesting that if we remove the endorsements, which is hard to do, like you said,
Shannon Watson: [00:46:00] Yeah.
Evan Meyer: from the democratic parties endorsement of this candidate for this position, and so well, let's, let's say this.
Evan Meyer: So since it's. Let's say that's a, the hard problem is to prevent the, them taking money for their campaign from these political parties. How can we make sure that the cities themselves operated and run by the city manager, for example, which is separate than the political body of the, of the council. Um, kind of like a board of directors and a CEO.
Shannon Watson: Exactly.
Evan Meyer: Um, how do we make sure there, because there's two versions of that. One is let's make sure all the candidates are nonpartisan. The other is how do you make sure the city is, is, is making sure that those candidates, even if they are getting that money, are not pushing political issues that could make them come off as partisan.
Shannon Watson: Right. Well, and that's, and [00:47:00] that's a good question. And the, the bigger problem from our perspective is, um. There is some mission creep when, you know, they take on issues that they're probably not, um, that's probably not their focus or they bring, um, a, a partisan sort of lens to what, what's on the city council agenda.
Shannon Watson: Um, but also that just gives another layer of, you know, my city counselor isn't the same as me. so that creates a divide and that's an artificial divide that. Still in Minnesota, in a lot of places it doesn't exist. There are a couple of cities where it, it's a big thing. Um, and one of the things that we were hearing from elected officials the last couple of years was, live in that city.
Shannon Watson: I really don't want this situation. Um, there's, there's, a couple of people who have gone to the endorsing convention. Like they're, they're still a member of their party, but they just aren't wearing that [00:48:00] hat as a
Evan Meyer: To,
Shannon Watson: Um, there are a couple of 'em that I know of. Who have gone to the endorsing interview, um, to tell the people they really shouldn't be endorsing, uh, in that race because it is a nonpartisan race and all of that. Um, there are always people who say, well, why don't you just. Uh, like ban endorsements, like have a law to ban endorsements.
Evan Meyer: mm-hmm.
Shannon Watson: your state California tried that in the 1980s and it is unconstitutional. Uh, so that's why we, we don't try that. So that's part of the, the challenge, just like, um, with legislative candidates and, and um, uh, legislative elected
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: you know, you, you have to, you have to figure out what are the incentives for
Evan Meyer: Yep.
Shannon Watson: or not doing it.
Evan Meyer: Well, tell me what cities are first on the list. What do we, which cities are gonna commit to this behavior?
Shannon Watson: Oh, um, well, this is the thing. It's, it's done with individuals, so we're not asking necessarily a, an entire city to right, to [00:49:00] organizationally take a position, um, on this. For a lot of them that would be very awkward, um, to have to do that. And so we're, we're going. by person. And, you know, we've got the, the support groups who, um, you know, have, they do, they, they support each other and they trade, um, tips and tricks and hey, what can we do about this person on our council who keeps doing these really partisan things and doesn't
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: their hat is different and all those things.
Shannon Watson: So it's
Evan Meyer: Look, I know, I know a, I know so many council members who would rather not
Shannon Watson: Mm-hmm.
Evan Meyer: play the game
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: and if they had a good reason or, or, or they could have been, they, they could be supported in a way to not. Play the game. They would,
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: um,
Shannon Watson: And
Evan Meyer: and some are more.
Shannon Watson: letting, letting your constituents know, like a lot of constituents don't realize that yes, [00:50:00] there state representative is gonna have a letter behind their name, but their city council, or it isn't. For good reason because
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: non-partisan offices and these are partisan offices.
Evan Meyer: Yeah. It's almost, you know, you know what's even more interesting that an individual. At any level could not want to aspire to take a philosophical, more centrist approach to things,
Shannon Watson: Mm-hmm.
Evan Meyer: right? Because you think like, you've got all these groups and we're the Democratic Party and the Republican party, and they were like, go blue, and whatever the, whatever it is, like, and then you're like, don't you see, you know, there's polarization and you're playing into it like you, like people know.
Evan Meyer: But they choose to continue to do it for money, power. Maybe they're really strong on like one issue that they just can't get over and, but you would,
Shannon Watson: Di
Evan Meyer: yeah.
Shannon Watson: one of the things, um, that really, I, I find comfort in this, and as I was looking at division and all these, just [00:51:00] like, what are the, what are the basics of division? Um, one of the things that we do, like, we divide because we're human. It is part of our genetic code to put people in, in groups or, and out groups. you with me or are you that you, are you us, or are you them? that makes a difference when you're talking about, you know, being in a political party or not. One of the things that we're doing with the support groups is reminding people they are not alone. It's not them versus me, it's them versus us.
Evan Meyer: Right,
Shannon Watson: Us isn't always as, um, as visible
Evan Meyer: right,
Shannon Watson: situations. So that's a i
Evan Meyer: right.
Shannon Watson: that's a
Evan Meyer: Yeah.
Shannon Watson: thing to get to do.
Evan Meyer: Alright, well, tell me, um, how do people, what do you want people to know about Majority in the Middle and how do they get in touch with you? How do they sign up? How do they join? How do they lead in the movement that you are creating here?
Shannon Watson: Awesome. Um, one of the questions that we get a lot is, um, are you just Minnesota And we [00:52:00] are just Minnesota right now. Um, that being said, our goal. Is to, um, to take what we learned in Minnesota and be able to replicate it in other places. So if you are interested and you do not live in Minnesota, still sign up anyway because maybe eventually we will get there.
Shannon Watson: Um, so, uh, our website is majority middle.org. Um, not majority in the middle.org. I don't know who owns that. I, I want to steal it with from them as soon as, as soon as I can. But I don't wanna ask 'em if I can buy it. 'cause then they'll think it's a, a thing. So anyways, um, majority middle.org. Uh, we suggest the first thing you do is sign up for the newsletter. We only send like three a month. Um, that give gives you a little view into what we're doing and who we are and that kind of thing.
Evan Meyer: Awesome.
Shannon Watson: Yeah.
Evan Meyer: Uh, Shannon Watson, uh, thank you so much. Best of luck on this, on this mission and, um, I, uh, I enjoyed this conversation
Shannon Watson: Me
Evan Meyer: I will
Shannon Watson: This
Evan Meyer: speak [00:53:00] to you. This was good. I will speak to you again soon. Thanks for all the good, hard work you're doing.
Shannon Watson: Thanks, Evan. Appreciate it.
Evan Meyer: All right.
Written by
Evan Meyer
January 20, 2025